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This blog is for the purpose of extending our conversation regarding the important topic of classroom management. My hope is that ideas stretch our current understandings and that questions stimulate an academic dialogue.
Classroom Management Links
- Eric Online Documents: Step by step (ED433334) First Days of School (ED442770)
- Teacher Vision...Experienced Teachers Offering Ideas and Solutions
- Dr. Mac's Amazing Behavior Management Advice Site
- Discipline by Design: The Honor Level System
- The Really Best List of Classroom Management Resources
- You Can Handle Them All
- Works4Me
15 comments:
His ideas are not attractive to me because they are not "real world." When you get a job, there is a management structure in place. There are workplace procedures and rules. Hardly ever are employees consulted on what they think policy should be. If there were no procedures, rules, management, etc. the company would be inefficient and unproductive. I think Kohn needs to try teaching with his system for a year. I want to know what he thinks about it then.I have a lot of trouble taking advice on teaching from someone who has not been a classroom teacher. Some things you just learn by experience. If we are to prepare students for their futures, shouldn't the classroom be like a practice "workplace"? I tend to look at it like that. Maybe I have the wrong attitude.
I think his ideas would be great if only a few students were in the class, like 3 to 5. With that class size the teacher would be able to really get to know a students' interest and be able to differentiate the instruction to meet the needs of that student. I actually like his ideas, but would find it difficult to implement with so many students in the classroom.
I found it interesting that as we were doing these presentations it seemed to gradually move to more student involvement and less rules and then came Wong to put things back to the more traditional style of teaching. We will not all have the same approach to our classrooms and I guess ultimately it is coming down to teacher comfort level. Thank goodness.
I just wrote a comment and the whole thing disappeared, so I'm pretty annoyed right now...
Ok, about Kohn... I'm not a Kohn head and I don't find his ideas attractive (for the most part). Kohn feel teachers should educate their students by encouraging them to pursue what interests them, by eliminating rewards and punishment and by fostering a sense of community (by holding class meetings, for example). What really turned me off to this model was his view of what "good teaching" is... how the curriculum should be organized around what the students want. I immediately thought about the kids that come to my class with a hatred for science. If I told them to choose what they wanted to learn about, they would never be exposed to topics that MIGHT just interest them once they start learning about it. I strongly disagreed with his views of traditional teaching. I don't understand how it undermines students' interests and doesn't challenge them. I guess I need to better understand how he defines traditional teaching. I also didn't like his view on students learning from their mistakes. Yes, I know we should learn from our mistakes but I'm not a supporter of mastery learning (do I have the right name?)for the majority of students... I know some students are special cases. I just want my kids to know that I expect perfection (ok, their best effort) the first time around!
I do not think I could ever run a classroom in the way described by Kohn. I agree with Tanya - that this is not in any way like the real world. It bothers me when someone who has never taught thinks that something like this would work. To me it sounds very chaotic and inefficient. My students would probably learn very little in the short period of time that I have with them. I think that Kohn is another example of a theory that sounds good but doesn't work. Kind of like NCLB...
Kohn’s idea that students will exhibit appropriate behavior when the curriculum is engaging is quite idealistic. Dissecting a squid is quite engaging, but if I don’t remind the student that they can only perform the steps that are in the procedure there will be at least 5 students stabbing the eyeballs and mutilating the remainder of the body. Because of curiosity children will do exhibit inappropriate behaviors. Appropriate behavior is learned by correction, repetition and modeling. Without structure there is chaos. Almost all situations in life have rules. Our students need to learn to follow rules in order that all students have an opportunity to learn in a calm, safe environment.
Kohn's approach is just not realistic for today with the emphasis on testing. Teacher's don't have time to let everyone choose what they want to learn, although I think it is important that students feel what they are learning is useful to them. But we don't have the time or freedom to do what we want with curriculum.
I think some kids need rewards and there should definitely be consequences for purposeful misbehavior. Kohn has some very good aspects...a classroom should have a sense of community and students should learn to work together to build mutual repect and responsibility. It's a little too idealistic, and I agree w/ Bryan that it might work with a very small group...and more likely in a private school.
I am not sure that 7th or 8th grade students have any idea about what they need to know. Sure they could possibly tell you what they want to learn. Is this what they will see on the PSSA test or do they decide what should be on the test also? That is like putting the Lion cub in charge of the pride. How long do you think that would last.
A few years ago I took a class on student to the work place. I am sure that many students coming out of schools that students decide what is going to be taught would not meet the needs of todays employers.
I also agree with Bryan that putting 32 7th graders in the position to come to a concensus would never work.
Kohn's ideas suggest that teachers give control over the curriculum to students. I think it is important to appeal to students' interests but at the same time they need to be enlightened on other topics as well. If I only taught what was of immediate interest to students I would miss seeing them get excited about topics they never thought they could get excited about. They also wouldn't be given as many educational opportunities. I think we have to vary our instruction, activities, and products no matter what curriculum is being taught and this makes seemingly "boring" topics more engaging for the students.
I agree with the majority of the class in saying that I too and not a Kohn Head. Tanya put it well when she wrote that his ideas just wouldn't work in the 21st century classroom. I know Kohn started his career as a teacher, but when was that. He feels that the teacher in the classroom does not need to enforce the rules, or even determine the rules. I took out of it, that he thinks the students will develop the rules, and then police themselves to some degree. If that worked, our society wouldnt need laws, or police. Idealy, even if one teacher could get this to work, not all of that students teachers would be using the same philosophy. It would just fall apart. Kohn's ideas about trust, respect, and equality are great, i think we can all agree to that. But when we compare his ideas and methods against our rigorous curriculum and demand for high standardised test scores, they just dont mesh. Sorry to all you Kohn Heads out there...
I think there is a small Kohn head in me. My library is more student interest driven than a traditional classroom. There are some stories that I share every year with a grade level because they are or are becoming classics, they have a wide appeal, and they support my curricular goal. But every year I add new books to my repertoire of books shared. I choose based on student interests, what's new and good, and current trends. Right now, that is Greek mythology and anything Egyptian. A few years ago it was the Titanic. Book selection is where I work hard to meet students' interests. That is where I depart from Kohn because I believe strongly in a structured classroom and a sense of community.
NO rewards, no punishment...choose what interests you...Kohn is a different kind of philosopher. I can't say I would follow his advice. I am sure he means well. I like Wong's way. Kohn's way is not attractive to me because they are so idealist and liberal...is that the word I want to use?
Bryan got it right when he said maybe 3-5 kids in the class would work with good old Alfie's ideas. Any more would be futile. There is merit in saying give freesom to your students, but in public education, one has to adhere to a curriculum that is planned out for them, and the kids didn't write it.
What a Kohn-head! The perfect spot for Kohn is on Survivor or Real World or Big Brother......actually he would probably be voted off (HAHA!)... I think we would be doing a grave injustice to our students if we embraced most of Kohn philosophy. Wow! I agree with Tanya, Lauren, and Brian g. It is a wonderful idea but unrealistic and not practical. If it was up to my kids I would only be teaching about Sex, Drugs, and Alcohol!!
I do not think Kohn would work at the elementary level. At this age, children are just learning what is right and what is wrong. We are a lot of times the parent that must teach them the values that they did not learn at home. Letting the kids make up rules would be crazy. No punishment would lead to chaos and my paintings would be dripping from the ceiling.
I enjoyed reading the responses to thsi question... I just love how those that have never been in a classroom before always know the best way to handle one. I would love to ave an administer pop in and observe my class and ask me what I was doin, and then see his response when I say, the kids wanted to do this today and since they run the show here, not me, I figure I would listen to them. I am in constant control of my teaching space, no matter how wide open it is or how small it is with any number of kids. I always get the kids to buy into the activity they are in. Occassionally I will offer a choice of games to the kids depending on what unit it is. That is about as much of the decision making process I give my kids in a class.
Kohn argues for a more whole-child approach that focuses on both academics and interpersonal skills. If a child learns how to effectively work together with the group, then he or she will become a cary, responsible student. Once the students have been taught to be caring and responsible for the whole group, Kohn believes that any behavioral issues can be handled in a class meeting. He believes that the students will no longer feel the need to act out because they are supported in the classroom and study what interests them. He believes that constructivist classrooms teach students how to think for themselves, analyze and synthesize information, and examine information deeply. He believes that students only truly learn when they have the option to choose what they learn.
His disavowel of punishments and rewards seems unlikely to work in a high school because his program would probably only work if every person in the building followed it. In a high school setting, the chances of that happening are very unlikely.
Kohn's ideas are not appealing to me because his model does not align with most public schools. Unfortunately, an enormous focus on standardized tests exists right now. On a block schedule, the class meetings would work timewise, but I am suspect of the amount of time that would be left for content or skills. His plan seems more of a guidance approach. I agree that student choice is valuable in the classroom, but I think the responsiblity factor can be reinforced through teachable moments. If a teacher creates an environment of caring and safety in the classroom, the students will have no problem being reminded of how to behave toward each other and think beyond themselves.
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